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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 19, 2009 1:00:37 GMT 8
Yo. So I've been looking around especially the RP discussion (shit hits the fan) and I've detected some "railroading". (which means strictly sticking to a predetermined plot for the story/adventure) As a VETERAN GAME MASTER FOR FOUR YEARS, here are some tips. 1) No railroading (or keep to bare minimum, enough to follow your OVERALL story) a. unless the character's actions are obviously far too ridiculous or out of their skill scope (e.g. eating the world with a teaspoon) b. unless it is a group mission and that character decides to move out of the scenario for no reason (up to you to determine) c. remember, even if you want a certain thing to happen, there are always millions of possibilities in an RP, so just suck it up and let it roll 2) GM characters a. should NOT interfere with the scenario UNLESS they are played as a normal, mortal, ordinary RPer, and should not be given special privileges or be especially protected from harm (godmoding) b. should have power levels (NOT >9000) similar to other players to keep balance 3) Items a. generally, RPGs work by "strength through adversity", you work for the things you want (e.g. the dude I made you fight for that awesomest armorz) instead of having OMYLORDZ LAZ0RZ KATANAZ given to them like Goh Bin b. do not make powerful items commonplace, such that if one is found, characters will have to determine amongst themselves who will get it c. if you have to give a powerful item to a character to help them complete the mission, you should remove it at the end of the mission or give them a less OP version 4) Skills a. skills increase with level, you do not start with very powerful skills at level 1, do you? low level characters should start with more basic skills, and give them choices to upgrade to per level (e.g. skill tree) b. eventually at a later level, characters can then design their own skills but remember to moderate them so as not to be too OP 5) Scenarios a. generally, in the same way as skills, mission difficulty level should be on par with player skill level, do not rush them into high level missions (e.g. your emperor base thingy with terminator uber missiles) though I understand your excitement in bringing your fantasies to life, it is best to guide them through slowly b. by having them cooperate in lower level missions first, it lets them formulate strategies that they can then use in higher level missions thus making the game more interesting and varied as it progresses 6) Expansions a. try to keep all happenings on one planet, one universe, one reality, at least on early levels, makes things simpler b. you can gradually introduce more characters and map areas over time or player level progression instead of dumping everything at once 7) Game Progression a. I understand the need to have quicker progress so as to unlock more powerful scenarios, and if a general consensus is reached then you could increase the "xp rate" so that characters can level up faster, but REMEMBER to have LOW LEVEL MISSIONS first! b. also, try to give each character at least one new item per mission (read, NEW item, not AWESOMEOVERPOWERED item) c. if one player levels up too fast, try to slow him down so that the rest of the "party" can catch up, after all, everybody wants to be in the same scenario, right? 8) NPCs a. your NPCs seem to be holding up well (except for really OP ones like omega and that turbojetthingy) b. "common" NPCs like troops should be easily defeatable (except for higher level missions) c. boss NPCs should of course be more difficult, but try not to raise them to PC level status, try to make their actions ever so slightly predictable, otherwise it'd simply be a GM character vs the rest That's all I can think of right now. Remember, this is not a FLAME post, it's simply a post to give you some pointers. You might disagree with a few, it's ok, but remember if you add content too fast you will run out sooner, and new content is what usually keeps players playing. Do not restrict creativity in an RP, that's why it's an RP, it's built on creativity and self expression. Also, guys, less RPing as girls please -.- Regards, Zhexuan (VETERAN GAME MASTER MWAHAHA) =D p.s. I could be mentor if you want p.s.s. Might be making a char soon, if it goes well (also, testosterone driven adrenaline junkie + warhammer40k esque kind of char so is awesomely awesome)
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Post by RaineScarlet on Aug 19, 2009 2:10:30 GMT 8
Also, guys, less RPing as girls please -.- Hey, what's wrong with that? D: I think it evens out the gender distribution, since if everyone RP'd as their gender, there would only be one or two girls. Granted, maybe the guy-playing-girl character might not seem AS realistic, but I haven't seen any problems so far, since this is more of an Action RP, instead of a slice of life / romance RP.
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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 19, 2009 2:16:23 GMT 8
Heh yeah that's true xD
Just seems a little weird to me occasionally >_>
Off to bed.
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Post by NPC Controller on Aug 19, 2009 7:12:38 GMT 8
Points noted.
Most of the stuff in the current thread will be taken back, anyway. (lol sorry guys you can't keep it)
I'll try not to railroad. Lots of trains in the RP though
The reason I'm not regulating skillsets so much is because most of the NPCs ARE as/more strong than yuriko. i.e. almost all have >9000 powerlevels whoops. Also I'm throwing in higher-ranked missions because of EXP multipliers. I'd like some ideas for low-level missions though.
Remember, turbojetthingies are ranked 64 through 67. LOWER THAN AVERAGE LOLZOR
GM characters don't do anything except GM (they actually serve as GMs lolwut)
I'm having a serious issue with people stepping beyond skill levels, I don't really mind if people collab to do SUPER LOLHAX moves (imma looking at you schro but hey, pot calling teh kettle black and all) but individual OPness is really pissing me off
Does thousands of fighter planes count as "common" NPCs, venser kinda killed almost 100 in one move and all
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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 19, 2009 20:02:57 GMT 8
Ok I'm sorry that "common" was a rather ambiguous term.
Power levels SHOULD scale with typical unit strength, so a hierarchy might help. Let's use military ranks to term unit strength shall we?
Ranking Recruit - soldiers, peasents, regular policemen etc. PTE - the above mentioned, and maybe veteran versions of above LCP - more competent versions of above, may also include light mechanized units CPL - usually light mechanized units and slightly magical beings 3SG - elite versions of LCPs 2SG - veteran versions of light mechanized units, normal magical beings 1SG - elite versions of light mechanized units, stronger than average NPC magical beings SSG - normal mechanized units, commando versions of LCPs MSG - veteran mechanized units, strong magical beings GSG - elite mechanized units, maybe weaker types of "Knights"
3WO - heavy mechanized units and stronger magical beings 2WO - veteran heavy mechanized units and "special" LCPs 1WO - elite heavy mechanized units and great magical beings CWO - commando mechanized units (overall) and "Knights"
2LT - "unique" versions of previous units (e.g. special stuff, have names) 1LT - higher "Knights" and more "unique" stuff if you will CPT - higher "Knights" LTCOL - up to this level it's up to you to mix and mash, usually COL - GEN - "Demon Lord"? F. MARSHAL - GOD -
so... yeah.
judging by your empire scenario, I'd expect the japanese psychotic to be a "GSG" and that uber aircraft could perhaps be a "CWO", however, keep in mind to also scale down your early level encounters to provide more breathing room.
a tengu would be perhaps 2SG, a waveforce artillery around MSG, of course normal soldiers are PTE and recruit. it's up to you to interpret "veteran", "elite", "commando", "special", and "unique", be it their actual experience levels or simply a substrata of rankings it should work fine.
for lower level scenarios, I'd suggest keeping the most powerful NPC at SSG, the mission being an ambush, perhaps? or an infiltration of an enemy outpost, not their main base
for medium level encounters, maximum could be brought up to CWO so you can have special units to fight against, by now the players should have some strategies and tactics in mind that they can use
and of course, for high level encounters, up to GEN, probably, but of course the word "high" is relative so you might want to scale it accordingly
AND GOD TIER MODE UNLEASH THE FURY!
that is all.
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Post by Seasons of Music on Aug 19, 2009 20:59:47 GMT 8
OMYLORDZ LAZ0RZ KATANAZ given to them like Goh Bin
I DO NOT HAVE IT WTSHIT!
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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 19, 2009 21:40:56 GMT 8
OMYLORDZ LAZ0RZ KATANAZ given to them like Goh Bin I DO NOT HAVE IT WTSHIT! lol who ask you keep saying you have
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Post by Seasons of Music on Aug 19, 2009 21:59:26 GMT 8
I DONT HAVE LAH I ALSO NVR SAY!
I juz said that there is such a weapon lahhh
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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 19, 2009 22:06:15 GMT 8
laxxing la go back on topic pl0x :V
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Post by schrodinger on Aug 19, 2009 22:32:21 GMT 8
Expanding on some of the points that Zhexuan has raised here:
1. No railroading
When you revealed that the plot for the entire thing had been thought up beforehand, and all characters had been on track for months, I was rather concerned, because that isn't how an RP should function.
Yes, there should be some kind of story behind the world, governing its setting - but having the characters adhere to a predetermined plot defeats the point of having other people contributing to it. As it is, this is a deterministic universe (where everything that matters is determined by the GM), and nothing that player characters do has much impact on the story.
If you were to exist in a world with a God who has everything planned out ahead of time (and some would argue that life really is like this), and nothing you did really mattered to the universe, life would feel rather pointless, and we would all descend into existential angst, and write emo blogposts.
This point segues into another salient issue;
NPC involvement
From the events that have occurred up till now, I get the feeling that there are serious problems here, in terms of how your NPCs affect the flow of the story.
Case Study: The first mission that the players were sent on, to pick up Etherlite.
Following the standard format of: Buildup/Tension - Conflict - Climax - Resolution, that plotlines follow, we can assess the flow of events that this encounter consisted of.
What exactly were the player characters supposed to derive from this encounter? Both Conflict and Climax were handled nearly exclusively by NPCs, because the enemy was simply too powerful for the player characters to defeat - this in itself is a very big no-no. When the first quest of the game involves you standing by while the boss you're supposed to be fighting beats you up effortlessly, and the only way to defeat him is to find another NPC, you begin to wonder what the point of the quest is.
What was the message here? What was the point of this subplot? That the player characters are just too weak to do anything by themselves, even when cooperating? That the people in your world are godlike beings?
I can understand if you want to portray these characters as being incredibly powerful - but don't do it at the cost of the player characters' "gameplay" experience.
Speaking of which;
Scenarios and Game Progression
Considering that many people have joined the game over time, and not all people are at the same level of power, it is all the more important to remember that level-appropriate encounters are the key to a harmonious experience for players of all levels. For instance, sending level 1 characters on the WWB assault mission - why!? They're not skilled enough or equipped enough to handle it, and you need to give them crazy powerful weapons like aforementioned pewpewlaserkatana to make up for it, which warps the proper development of the character.
Look at it this way; if the high-levelled characters are in a more challenging situation that is unsuitable for lower-levelled characters, you should not feel obliged to contrive the situation such that they are brought into it simply because they need to gain experience. They can also be involved in the progression of the story and gain experience, through encounters that are appropriate to their power level. Low-level encounters aren't necessarily less valuable than high-level ones in terms of how they challenge players.
Following up on the point above on items:
Items
Rule of thumb: if the characters need incredibly powerful weapons to be handed to them just so they can fight on an even footing with whatever it is they're up against, they're out of their league, and should not be involved in that conflict until they are more powerful. Seriously, just handing orbital weapons and pewpewlazors to characters of any level detracts heavily from the sense of accomplishment that a player should have from beating down enemies using nothing but their own abilities and equipment.
Conclusion
That's about it for now. The other points that Zhexuan raised are ones that I thus far don't see any problems with, but as I've previously said, this RP could be better. Whether or not you take these guidelines for improvement into account in future is entirely your choice.
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ivankira
Youkai
Wielder of Will
Posts: 137
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Post by ivankira on Aug 19, 2009 22:55:33 GMT 8
i'm making an unbiased statement here. so dont think too much into it.
anyway, with regards to the scenario and game progression, schro, ever thought about who was the one who's mostly doing all the NPC controlling? whos the one coming up with missions and such for us to accomplish?
not that this RP is bad, nor it cannot be better, nor more missions for beginners should be made... but we have to take into account that the man power to run this game is rather limited. imagine if callirus made like 10 missions. and all 10 are done by 10 teams/individuals. its rather hard for him to juggle them all. unless you want the NPCs of each mission to respond like 1~2 days later?
However, i do agree to some extent with the railroading thingy.
And as for the items... if you consider a "pewpewlaserkatana" powerful... what's the "pewpewlazors" to you then? personally, i think the WaveForce Katana is just average/standard. not overpowered (you cant slash out massive "getsuga tenshou"-s just based on the sword). and not pathetic either (at least it can cut more stuff than normal katanas). besides, the less powerful people weren't given the "pewpewlazors" (hammer of dawn) right? obviously callirus has considered that if the whole team were given the "pewpewlazors", be it if they could use guns properly or not, it would mean total annihilation of enemy base, and therefore, giving all participants an instant exp bonus or whatnot.
Last but not least, zhexuan's idea on the ranking system seems good. but i think there has to be a distinction between the pure magic users, non-magic users, and hybrid-magic users. people from the 3 different groups but with the same rank would also be equated as the same "rank" overall.
and maybe... we could include a system like...
pure magic user > non-magic user > hybrid-magic user > pure magic user
or something like that. (this is just a suggestion)
all the best for the development and improvement of this rp!
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Post by Seasons of Music on Aug 19, 2009 23:07:34 GMT 8
LOL so it is basically a scissors paper stone kinda situation?
For me, the reason i love this RP is that i get to use my intelligence in formulating broken plans that actually work based on what we have at that time. (i mentioned my plan bout dealing with those planes somewhere, but it turned into an assault on the base)
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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 19, 2009 23:11:36 GMT 8
It is powerful relative to the player's current level, that is what I'm saying.
Obviously such a weapon wouldn't be as OP if the character was of a higher level, since he'd have on par or better stuff by then.
Weirong might ask me to play another NPC Controller (lol) but obviously I won't use it to further my own character.
Nothing is perfect, but if we don't point out flaws, it will never get closer to said perfection, even if it is unattainable.
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Post by schrodinger on Aug 19, 2009 23:35:08 GMT 8
Of course I thought about the one doing all the scenario work, which is why it occurred to me that the current system had much room for improvement. Manpower limitations can be solved by getting more people to control NPCs, and I understand that progress is being made in this regard.
Consider the current level demographic of the RP (counting only active posters,of which there are perhaps 10 at the most). There are perhaps 3-4 low-levelled (level 1-4) characters - they can go on one mission together. The same applies for each level range. Do note that this doesn't mean that these characters will forever be seperated from each other due to the level gaps between them remaining constant. Eventually, they should all even out. It's not that logistically intensive.
WRT items, my point is that the characters shouldn't even have weapons of this calibre at their level. All the weapons do is give them the ability to deal with this mission's challenges, and the level 1 characters shouldn't even be on the mission in the first place.
When you say "obviously carillus has considered that if the whole team were given pewpewlazors it would mean total annihilation of the enemy base and giving all participants an instant exp bonus", I find the logic here strange (the phrasing doesn't help either). The point of any encounter is not to give the player characters free exp or have them get OHKO'd by imba bosses, but to challenge them to find ways around the situation that they are in, using their own abilities. Throwing these powerful weapons into the equation is in itself a subversion of the characters' abilities, and it serves to highlight the fact that they are very much out of their league, even those at higher levels.
Look at it this way, without those weapons, none of the characters would stand a chance against that base. There are two ways to solve this; either give the characters a mission that they can accomplish completely within their means, or artificially raise their power levels by giving them powerful weapons, which enable them to attempt the mission. The problem with the latter solution is that it undermines the characters' own abilities, because without these weapons, their abilities wouldn't get them very far. In an ideal scenario, they would be able to find their way out of these situations without the use of overpowered weapons.
(And there's no reason that we can't have a scenario that is ideal for all players to roleplay out a solution to a mission without the involvement of overpowered NPCs or weapons.)
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Post by Carillus on Aug 20, 2009 1:18:53 GMT 8
Now that you say it, I can consider mission complete.
Because as you have said, it "serves to highlight the fact that they are very much out of their league".
Congratulations. Indeed you are.
There are currently two problems with having a scenario without overpowered NPCs or weapons:
1) Every NPC Knight from level 95 up is pretty much above our heads already. The non-ranked... I don't really want to talk about. 2) I'm still in universe development and attempting to expand, but the only way to do this is by showing new areas and highlights in them.
If anyone is willing to help me in this regard, I would gladly accept it. I really don't want this turning into an action RP where everyone pulls way above their weight either. I found the only way to contend properly with the above two issues is to make it clearly obvious that everyone is currently in way over their heads. Not the best of ideas, I must say. It seemed good at the time, now it's just getting boring.
I do still have to continue with the current plotline though. I'm trying to relax control on the actual proceedings. Please continue with the RP.
Who wants to do the next story plot? Raise your hands please~
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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 20, 2009 18:28:43 GMT 8
The thing is enemies CAN be more powerful than the player, but the player must then be in a group which then works cohesively to defeat him. But powerlevels must NOT be OVER NINE THOUSAND!
I won't mind thinking up some plots but I don't know about your world so stuff might not fit :x
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Post by skiboydoggy on Aug 20, 2009 18:58:32 GMT 8
I'm thinking that we should let the characters go back to fighting Knights. I'll come up with small missions for them myself if they want, but the RP is essentially about getting to the top of the Roundtable after all.
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Post by Phagetthree on Aug 20, 2009 20:52:44 GMT 8
You don't get to the top right after a few missions Drag it out abit, let players explore the world(s), that way not only do you get to play longer you also get to create more scenarios and spread out Knight encounters.
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Post by RaineScarlet on Aug 21, 2009 1:20:56 GMT 8
Character development would be nice. I'm sure there are areas in this big world that may trigger flashbacks or random outbursts of emotion.
I think we need something like this. For now, it's hard to tell with all the weapons that people have, but of course, people who are both magically and physically adept should not be more powerful in both areas than the pures, except when there is a significant level difference.
Also, while on the topic of character power levels, I'm having a problem with certain characters' transformations. u_u I know my character has one, but it activates under very precise conditions and can only be used for a few posts (not including my own. When you consider how many active posters there are, that's usually only one action--two if I'm lucky). The only boost she receives is for one skill. From what I can see of the other transformations so far, the characters can activate it at any time, and they get significant boosts in HP, MP, attack, magic, etc. The time limit of the transformation is decided by the player himself and, so far, they last from about the middle of the battle to the end of the battle.
In short, it's like they become uber for each battle they decide to use it for. No problems so far, since the NPCs are still stronger, but I just hope that it doesn't get worse.
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ivankira
Youkai
Wielder of Will
Posts: 137
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Post by ivankira on Aug 22, 2009 0:25:36 GMT 8
To add on to Raine's point on the transforming...
Honestly speaking, I still think that transformations still require a lot more nerfing. Even if NPCs are still stronger. For one thing, they could be powerful for nuts, but it would probably exhaust them still a state unfit for battle in a certain time period.
A good example of such self-controlled limitation would be the way Shirafune plays the RP. Even though the character does not really have a transformation - more like schizophrenia - when she switches over to the other "self" or casts a lot of spells simultaneously, she gets exhausted. And for the next few posts, she's probably stoning or doing something that is not very "battle-constructive". Not that I'm criticising Shirafune, its a good balance that his character possess.
Well, in my opinion... A character that transforms into a more powerful form, is like condensing all his current mana/power/whatever to match up to his opponent. And of course, it uses up darn quickly (or at least a suitable length of time...). Thus, at the end of it, wouldn't a transformation just result in something like the above?
Also, to quote Raine's point: "I know my character has one, but it activates under very precise conditions and can only be used for a few posts"
Indeed, this is a very good and feasible way of controlling "transformation" characters. But this only applies for characters that attain uber powers by transforming, for those that HAVE to transform just to get into a "battle-mode" then its a different story.
For myself, my character has a rather dark side/transformation. That only occurs in a very very rare situation. In which I don't even know if it exists in Propella. I would have to ask Callirus... "Do eclipses happen in this RP?"
(please do not make an eclipse occur soon just because it can. lol)
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Post by Mathus on Aug 22, 2009 0:30:29 GMT 8
Wonder if my char violates that..then again..he's too weak to fight without it..so far, since the missions we went so far is like..way too strong for us. I might add a few more penalties in the future though. And speaking of transformation..I think I'll have the most..6+ so far including future ones..and probably too much skills too..
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Post by skiboydoggy on Aug 22, 2009 0:38:49 GMT 8
Transformations are for people who can't twink well enough.
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Post by RaineScarlet on Aug 22, 2009 8:54:55 GMT 8
Sierra doesn't need her trans to be awesome. <3 And in most cases, if you're creative enough with your powers, you can create paths to victory in ways other than blasting through.
Anyway, back to case in point. I get ivankira's description on transformations and such, but how about this: if the battle ends just as the transformation loses steam, the time between the battles would be enough for the character to regenerate, and then pull off another trans in the next battle no problem. In other words, it's exploitable if timed well. ~_~
Uh yeah, excuse my character critique. I don't know what's going on in the RP half the time because I'm too lazy to look up the weird-ass weapon defense infrastructure whatever things, so I can only analyze how each character is played.
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Post by schrodinger on Aug 22, 2009 9:46:52 GMT 8
The thing about transformations is that they usually fit into two archetypes.
A) The character transforms right before any battle, because it gives him/her enough power to handle it easily, then resumes a normal form after the fight.
B) The character transforms when the situation becomes too harsh to handle, and the transformation is so broken that it turns the tables. However, the character suffers some sort of drawback after the transformation ends, and the transformation is too intense for the character to maintain for prolonged periods of time.
Both types have their various merits and demerits in terms of balance and roleplay value, but personally, if I do implement a transformation-type skill for my character in future (I might), I'd rather keep it as type B.
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Post by Carillus on Aug 22, 2009 9:51:25 GMT 8
to be honest, eclipses do happen. Most often in West Orlania, to be exact. Some high-level Knights have the ability to cause a proper eclipse - even my char can do a pseudo.
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